Aaron Hurst Story and Insights on Balancing Relationships, Work, and Growth

Pamela Bardhi: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Underdog podcast. I am so excited to have this magical human being here with me today. Aaron, how are you, my friend?

Aaron Hurst: I am doing great. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation all day.

Pamela Bardhi: I’ve been looking forward to this conversation all day. My goodness. I’m looking at you on LinkedIn, and I’m like, man, he is such a cool dude. Like, he’s all about purpose, he’s all about passion. And that’s really what true business is all about. What’s true success is all about. It’s not just going out there and making money, it’s what are you doing it for? Who are you doing it for? Why are you doing this? What is your purpose, and how, that all align?

So, I’m super excited for the conversation today, and I’m, I just can’t wait. I can’t wait to hear all your insights and, more importantly, your story of how you got on this path. And every single time, I have to reel it all the way back. Right. As a kid. Erin, I would love to know, what did you want to be when you grew up? Like, what was little Aaron like, what did little Aaron want to be? All of the things. Yeah.

Aaron Hurst: It depends on where you want to start. Started my first business when I was 16. I was always a kid who did okay in school, did well enough, but never found the classroom very interesting. It always felt pretty boring, so when I was 16 I started a baseball card dealership. Which was my first sort of foray into being an entrepreneur. And absolutely loved it, I loved going out, sitting in Arbor. Going out to Detroit to all these card shows. Figuring out how to sell cards, how to negotiate, how to merchandise, I just loved that process. But no one in my family was an entrepreneur, or at least used that word. So I didn’t even know what that was, it was just, see an opportunity, and you want to go after it. That just continued throughout my life.

I went to Michigan for college, and, again, class was pretty boring. So I spent most of my time working in a prison nearby, volunteering, teaching creative writing. And creating a program for students to really amplify their learning through actually doing service. Because I was like, why are you writing papers that one person reads? You should go out and actually do something that matters, and you’ll learn from that, we can reflect on it. Ended up majoring in service, learning this idea of we learn through service to others. A bunch of my time also studying abroad, I’ve always been really intrigued. Growing up as a gen xer about the Cold War and seeing. Wanted to go and see what it was like to live behind the Iron Curtain. Was formerly the Iron Curtain.

So I did study abroad in Prague, was super curious while I was there, just to travel all around. Got to go into Serbia and Croatia during the middle of the war and just sort of see what that looks like. I’m just someone who’s curious and I like to see things that I don’t have access to normally. That was sort of the college years, graduated, thought I wanted to go and work in education in Chicago. Started a career there and after a very short period of time was like, this is not for me. This is slow, it doesn’t move fast enough. We’re not making a big enough impact, so I moved to Silicon Valley and this sort of funny story. I moved there, and had no idea what I was going to do through networking.

Just met with a woman, Jenna Marshall, who is this awesome powerhouse woman. Who had just co-founded a startup that had gotten a bunch of venture money. There’s like five of them. We hit it off, and she’s like, if you show me one page of HTML that you coded. Like, one page, I’ll hire you as our front end developer for the company. I literally had one page, which is my resume, which I had just taken someone else’s resume, like yours, Pamela. And just changed the name on the back end. She’s like, great, you’re hired to be the front end dev for this venture backed tech company. At the time, there was very little online. Went and bought all the books and gave myself the weekend to learn how to code. Got started in my first startup, did two of those.

Then, I had always wanted to go back and work on social change. The startups were great because I learned a lot. It accelerated my career like crazy, I went from a pup at 21 to within five years. I was running a 30 person product development team. So it was just amazing to be part of those early.com years where you can just accelerate to your capability. But then I realized I wanted to go back into making a social impact. That’s where the idea for the Taproot foundation came. Because I saw that the thing that made these tech companies so different from the nonprofits. That I was working with in Chicago is they had access to talent that was not accessible to the nonprofits. And had this sort of.

I called it, chocolate and peanut butter moment where two things come together and you’re like, damn, that tastes good. Why did anybody do this before? And created a model of looking at how could we use business talent to volunteer? Not to go clean up a park or work in a soup kitchen, but to actually build websites, databases, HR plans. Built the largest nonprofit consulting firm in the world, built off of volunteer labor. Sort of people who are willing to hustle on top of their 50 hours a week working to make a difference. Because they really wanted their skills, their knowledge, their expertise to make a difference in the world. So I’ll stop there. I’ve been talking for too long, but that’s sort of the 1st 15 years of my journey.

Pamela Bardhi: I know, I absolutely love that. I’m digging this story, my friend. There’s so much to unpack, with all of it, I mean, it’s amazing. Start being an entrepreneur, right, at 16. And then, like, starting all these ventures and then, I mean, taproot was absolutely incredible, too. When I read up on that, I was like, that is absolutely genius, and crossing two realms.

Service learning, if we go down the right path, is the future of learning

And the service learning part is also the one that really gets me about you, too. Because that is super, super impactful stuff. I mean, I’m just listening in on all the magic that you’re, that you’re talking about. So definitely dig deeper. This story is incredible.

Aaron Hurst: The service learning piece is we need it now more than ever, especially with Aihdem. We need people to be learning through service, like, that’s the way education should be designed. Starting in preschool through college. It should be all about serving others and learning through that process. The focus on learning facts and figures, et cetera, is going to be less and less relevant, I think service learning. If we go down the right path is the future of how we think about learning. But yeah, it’s your question. So, with Taproot as I share, we became the largest consultancy in the world. And we realized we were barely meeting the need, we’re barely meeting a fraction of a fraction of the need. I was like, well, what if we double, like lame, ten x lame, like 100 x?

Like, there’s no way we could scale with the program, we had to meet the need. Because the need was so large and we just shifted. We said, we’re going to stop having a strategy of being the solution provider to being the market builder. So that we can bring competitors into this, so we can make a lot of organizations able to do this. And started working with the White House, started working with universities, started working with companies. To really create a whole market, which grew to be about 15 billion a year, in pro bono services. Throughout the US, and then partnered with BMW. Incredible people at BMW in Berlin to create a global network. Across 30 countries to spread the idea and the principles of pro bono service, incredible experience.

Like you said, working across sectors, which is my favorite work, because you’re connecting dots. You see all of humanity and you get to work with the best across the board. Just, absolutely loved it. But at a certain point, I was like, I’m either going to do this for the rest of my life and be a lifer here. Or I need to go and try something else, whether I succeed or fail, and just ultimately decide. I’m going to go, put my foot out at the door and see if I can do something else. Because tapu was doing great, I was like, it can still do great without me. It doesn’t need to continue to do this. Decided, that I wanted to write a book. And I wrote a book called the Purpose Economy, which was really my manifesto.

Using all the latest research, and the latest trends in our economy. Innovation to show that purpose was increasingly becoming the source of value creation in the labor market and in consumer markets. Really making the case that if companies wanted to succeed going forward, they had to pay attention to it. Redesign their workplace and how they approach the market through the lens of purpose. And to use the science of it, not the sort of traditional faith based or coach based version of it. So I wrote that, and had a great time just building awareness about purpose. I think it’s, by 2000, I think it was 18. It became sort of widely adopted as the new framework for how companies should think about what success is.

There’s actually a whole movement, the business roundtable, to redefine the purpose of a company. Which I was really, really, inspired by. And I’d like to think I had a small part in building towards that trajectory. As part of that sort of venture backed startup, really looking at how we create the technology. That’s necessary to power a purpose driven workplace. So how do we psychologically profile employees to know their purpose? How do we then enable them to support each other, to optimize their work, around purpose and meaning? I ran that for a long time.

It actually just got acquired last week by a company called Pronos. Which is the world’s largest mentoring and employee, resource group, software company that’s now going to have an even greater impact. But it was amazing to see it scale across all these different companies and touch hundreds of thousands of lives. Left that about 18 months ago and now working on a set of new ventures. But, it’s been an incredible privilege. I think to me, at the end of the day, it was just curiosity that has always been the thing that’s driven me. And sort of the question of what if? What if we did this, what if we did that? So that’s really been my lesson, is just to follow that, what if?

Creating businesses that are conscious is a whole new ballgame

Pamela Bardhi: Well, it intrigues me tremendously that you’re so into the consciousness business space, because that’s what I’m literally all about. Because creating businesses that are conscious, right where the employees are conscious. Working towards a mission rather than profit is a whole new ballgame. Success is defined so differently, and that’s really what life is about. I’ve met some of the most successful people in the world. It’s never the dollars, it’s who have they impacted, what is the legacy that’s been created? What is the work that’s being completed here, and what’s that all about? And, it’s been one hell of a journey to kind of walk through that. I love seeing that with you, that that’s exactly what you’ve built. Because how can you empower people if they’re working towards their purpose and their mission? You have ten people walking down the same path?

They’re going to be inspired, motivated, empowered to keep moving business forward. And that is the way, through, business should be done, like, quite literally, it is crazy that you’re saying this. This year, I launched a private equity fund, it’s called conscious business. Well, conscious business league is one thing, it’s like a business networking platform for conscious entrepreneurs. Then the other one is, a conscious capital coach is all about moving money in the right hands. So that it creates a better world, so yours is like the same elements, which I absolutely love. It’s greater impact and working with that passion, and I mean, even your book, purposeful CEO, it’s incredible. Like, those resources really do make a difference because you could chase money all day long. You’re not in alignment, and if you’re not moving in your purpose, it’s kind of like.

You need to have meaningful relationships and you need to be constantly growing

So I would love some breakdown on that, on, your recommendations in terms of anybody who’s out there right now. That’s like, what do I do? How do I find my purpose, how do I get aligned? How do I, you know, just some tips there, especially for any aspiring entrepreneurs out there too. Or someone who’s just looking at their role and saying, hey, I’m just not fulfilled.

Aaron Hurst: Yeah, I really break it down to some really simple things, that are not glamorous. I find most truths have to make sense to a five year old, and if it doesn’t, it’s probably not real. Research showed when I was doing this research project with universities and companies. That there are three things that matter in your work, you need to have meaningful relationships. You need to feel like you’re making an impact that matters and you need to be constantly growing. Those are the three things we need to really feel fulfilled in our work. And that’s really where I put the emphasis, purpose is a part of that. But I think the most important thing at a basic level is just to think about. Like, what are the relationships you want to have?

I started a company and met with a mentor early in my career. He’s like, this company is going to have you working, selling to salespeople every day. Like, are those the relationships you want? I’m like, no. And he’s like, do not do this business. Even if you can make a lot of money. Do not do this business if you don’t want to spend time with those people, if those aren’t the relationships. If you’re not going to be able to have the quality of connection you need, don’t do that. So people need to really think about how are you investing in relationships? How are you looking for jobs based on the people, how are you prioritizing your day based on the people? That is the most important thing, like, full stop is people.

You can find a lot of meaning in work even if the work’s not that great. If you just are working with great people, but most people don’t do that, they optimize for something else. Second is impact just, and this is a very simple thing. It doesn’t have to be climate change or something like, you know, solving for world peace. It’s about just feeling like the work you’re doing matters to other people. I think a lot of people in this country do not have meaning in their work. Because they really just don’t feel like their work matters to anybody else. That’s partially because the culture is not showing them that it does. But also in a lot of cases, like, roles are being designed that don’t really matter. And of course you’re going to be miserable if your job doesn’t actually matter.

And then growth. Growth is not about learning so much as it is stretching. Learning is like I learned Spanish. Stretching is, I was scared of something like public speaking, and I overcame that fear. I’m now a bigger person, learning Spanish doesn’t make me a bigger person. It’s a great thing to do. It is the like, overcoming fear that actually is what creates that sense of fulfillment in our lives. So I really just challenge people to regularly take stock of your relationships, your impact, and your growth. Call it rig for short, and just really optimize around those things. That’s whether or not you’re, like, entry level or frankly, like in college. Like, do that while you’re in school, do that in your first job.

As a CEO, do the same thing. It’s like, who are the people you want to have around you, the relationships? Those are going to be the people who are going to share your values. They’re going to be the people who enable you to build a more conscious business. What is the impact you’re making? Really being honest about that impact. And then how do you, as a CEO, constantly grow? When I interview CEO’s of huge companies, they are all focused heavily on growth, personal growth. You think, oh, they’ve made it, they don’t need to do that anymore. They focus more on growth than any population I’ve seen. That’s my framework for how to think about it, you can tell it to a five year old, they understand it.

Pamela Bardhi: I love that. No, it’s such a beautiful breakdown, to be completely honest. It’s fabulously done where you’ve broken it down, those three things in the rig. Really, anyone and everyone who’s listening will take note of that for sure. And I absolutely just love that. That’s the framework I need.

I always get asked, what are your thoughts on creating a successful business

I always get asked, okay, imagine, what are your thoughts on creating a business that gonna be successful? There’s so many elements. How do I break this thing down? You know, you want to try to take it from Oya up here, bring it all kind of down. And I love the way that you phrase that. It’s so beautiful, and it’s truly, I mean, the impact is the heart of it, right? Yeah, it’s like, it’s like avengers, assemble. Once you say, hey, this is the mission I’m going to go on with this business. This is my intention, you take it to a whole new level. When you set the intention to, okay, I’m going to attract people that are on the same mission. Then it doesn’t really become, like, business anymore, it’s really like you’re on a mission together, which is incredible.

I would love to hear a little bit about the journey of how you started

And so I would love to hear a little bit about the journey of. Like, how you started, and then we’re able to scale, and then also, by the end of it, be. Know when to exit. Right. Because some people are like, no, that’s my baby. You know, it can’t run without me, can’t function without me. So I would love to hear that piece of it, too.

Aaron Hurst: Yeah, and I’ll start with that one, I have a rubric which I’ve written about. Which is basically, at the end of the year, I psychologically think about firing myself, and then I love that. I decide, like, do I want to rehire myself? Right, so you just feel psychological, go through that process and just know, like, create that space. And the test to me is, if you hired someone who’s very strong, very capable in that job. Could they do at least 80%, a good job as I am? Because if they can, I can probably make a bigger impact doing something else. It’s not about, like, can I do this job? It is like, can someone else do it? If someone else can, then I have a higher purpose.

Which is finding the next thing where someone else is not going to do it if I don’t do it. Try to think about it. I’m not saying I’ve always had the most pure discipline, on that. But that’s the thing I aspire to in terms of how I think about it. I think as a general framework, as an entrepreneur, it’s the right way to go. If you’re in sales or coding or what have you, you may not have the same framework. Because it may be about different questions about challenges, et cetera, but that’s the way I’ve always tried to elevate my game.

Pamela Bardhi: I absolutely love that. Well, you’re putting yourself in a vulnerable position and in the position of everyone else that you’re working with, too. You’re holding yourself to the same standard, which I think is really, really, important. You know, you’re with your team as opposed to being the leader and way on top of CEO, founder, whatever. Right? And so you’re breaking that down and you’re saying, hey, adding that layer of accountability. Which is really key, and I’ve never heard that before. So I actually got to take notes on that myself, because how did I do this, pastor? Would I rehire myself? Let’s see, right?

So in certain areas, I absolutely love that. And too, like, in this realm and the service based learning and all of this stuff. I really talked about growth quite a bit, and I really want to dig into, like, the personal development stuff. What are some of the mantras and things that have inspired you in order to kind of explore these routes? Because certain things that you say tells me that you’re in many states of enlightenment. Right. That I have done a lot of work on yourself in order to get to where you are in business. Would love to kind of hear some insight on that.

Aaron Hurst: Yeah, I mean, I think I was really lucky, I was. I’m of jewish descent, and I was raised in a buddhist household. And being part of the buddhist community, and I think that gave me a real head start on that. Because Judaism is a faith of questioning, and Buddhism is a faith that’s largely around consciousness. It’s around recognizing that everything’s relative and somewhat of an illusion. It brings in practices like mindfulness into it. So it’s sort of this mindfulness combined with questioning, combined with the jewish tradition of repairing the world. That we’re ultimately here to help try to repair the world. I think that really has served me really well, even when I don’t realize what’s going on, that’s sort of my operating system.

I think a lot of that’s sort of intuitive to me. It’s a lot of, like, as a family, what we talk about. So it’s hard to escape it, and ignore it. Like I shared earlier, like, I’m very driven by this sort of what if? Question and curiosity, and I find that that generally pushes you into growth, because you’re constantly questioning the status quo. You’re constantly trying to look at the art of combination, you’re constantly experimenting, you’re tinkering. That, to me, becomes a growth engine for you. And, I guess one way of thinking about it is just to figure it out for you. What is that growth engine question that is authentic? Don’t create something that’s artificial. But when you are pushing yourself, what is the question you’re asking yourself. Make that question your mantra for lack of a better way of classifying it?

Pamela Bardhi: Absolutely. And it’s the question that drives you tremendously.

I love that you mentioned the different religions and really how that’s impacted you

Love that you were mentioning the different religions and really how that’s impacted you. Because, I mean, it is fascinating incorporating those two realms you know, of consciousness and all of that. I mean, now it’s becoming a real thing and more people are talking about it. But it’s really impactful, really, really powerful stuff. And when you really dig into it, the most successful people I’ve ever met in the entire world. Like I was just at Necker island about one month ago now with Sir Richard Branson.

Aaron Hurst: Yeah.

Pamela Bardhi: And he’s. The thing that struck me big time was how authentically himself he was and how much he’s driven towards impact. Like the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, this is all I care about. They’re like, I’ve got everything. This is it, and he’s like, this is all I’ve cared about from day one. Well, he’s like, well, first, back then, it was a little different. I was a bit of a rebel. Right. You know, he wanted to give you know, give these brands names through Virgin records and things like that. It was just, it’s just incredible.

Then just the different mindset and like you were saying, the growth and all that. I remember we were at a necker and we were about to climb up like a 2500 elevation mountain. Like, I am not an athletic type. Right. And if you had told me that prior to me going, I probably would have passed out. But I said, no. I’m going to go, 06:00 a.m. I’m going to do it, I’m going to try it, even though I might pass out. One of the big things was, he was like, just keep your head steady. And followed up on this later.

Don’t look up, don’t look down when you’re climbing a hill

I would love to hear your insight on moments of hardship that you’ve had. Resilience and how you’ve pushed through them throughout your businesses and even just in life. He was like, you know, pam, you can’t, don’t look up, don’t look down. Look at where you’re going. Keep the bike going up the hill. Just don’t, don’t look up and don’t look down, just look right where you’re going and you’re gonna slowly get there. And it was so true. Every time I would lift my head up, I was like, oh my God, that hill is so steep. This is so ridiculous. Are you kidding me? Then like, when I would look there, all of a sudden, I would slowly but steadily get there. It was such a powerful lesson that I had learned and I was, wow.

Jeff Bezos: There are leaders who are impact driven and craft driven

So for you, I would love your insight in those moments where you are being challenged, right? Because in building what you’ve built, I’m sure there’s been a ton of stories. A ton of challenges and resilience that you’ve had to kind of push through in order to get to that level. We’d love to hear your insights on what happened through that journey. And really how you pivoted past or lessons that you learned throughout it.

Aaron Hurst: I think people do it in different ways. So, again, I was going to your point about impact. What I found in our research was that there are leaders who are impact driven. There are leaders who are values driven, and there’s leaders who are craft driven, and they’re all forms of sense. But there are leaders who. It is about the craft. It’s not necessarily about the impact, but it’s that they have a craft and they love their craft. There’s those who are like, it is about the end impact, they don’t really care how it happens. They just want the impact. And there’s people who just care about doing things the right way and doing the right thing. Each has a different driver of what helps you when you hit a speed bump.

With craft, it’s about just pivoting and trying a different way with impact. It’s really looking at reconnecting to the why behind what you’re doing and for values. It is trying to connect back to what is the right thing to do at this moment. What is my integrity? I tend to be more on the, I’m a combination of them. But, for me, a lot of it is on the value piece of it. And trying to just really always go back to what’s the right thing to do today. What’s the right thing to do and to start back. The Amazon mantra of day one, start back at day one, what’s the right thing to do? Go forward and try to let go of what happened before. That’s been part of it.

The biggest struggles have always been people’s struggles because I think that’s the nature of life. And I think one of the hardest things I found, that I still haven’t figured it out really. Is how to develop the right board of directors as an entrepreneur who really understands entrepreneurship and understands social impact. Because there just aren’t that many that really get that, and I’m also just, I’m a big personality. It’s like, how do you design a board around an entrepreneur with a big personality? Just candidly, I think those are where I’ve had the biggest rifts around my work but, yeah, there’s daily setbacks.

Studies show most entrepreneurs have severe mental health issues

As an entrepreneur, a lot of people are asked, how do you become an entrepreneur? My answer to that is, entrepreneurship is a mental health problem. It’s not a desirable thing to be, and the studies have shown most entrepreneurs have severe mental health issues. And it’s the sense of being driven to the point of being irrational. To the point where it’s not really good for your health, it’s not good for your family. You’re just so doggedly fixated on something that’s possible that you can’t let go of it. So, we celebrate entrepreneurship. I think it’s always important to also describe it as a mental health disorder in a lot of ways.

Pamela Bardhi: It’s that balance of, you’re so in love with what you’re doing. In my world, real estate development, it’s like, this stuff is a lifestyle, right? It is just what it is. So it’s like, how do you like the art of balance right now? I have babies that are less than a year old, that are twins. And it’s like juggling being a mom and then doing all these things, though. Like, what has been your kind of, I want to say, like, saving grace when it comes to balance in all of that. As an entrepreneur, balancing all of these incredible initiatives and purposeful work and organizations, businesses. All of the things that you’ve done, I think it’s hard.

Aaron Hurst: I mean, I don’t think I have a, do, work that you actually are proud of. Do work, when you can include your kids in it and make them part of your work in some way. And I think at times, I’ve worked way too much, and I look back on it. I’m like, if I hadn’t done those four trips, it wouldn’t have mattered a damn bit. Right, we convinced ourselves we need to do things. Really believe the work around essentialism is right, I don’t always practice it well. I’ve been doing a lot of work over the last two years, Pam, on just. We have an impulse to do something, and then I immediately have questions.

If I didn’t do this, how would that change the success of my business or the world? And I’m shocked that, like, 80% of the time. I’m like, it would have no impact at all, or most likely would have no impact. I just. It’s like momentum, energy, it’s not actually like, what needs to get done. Yeah, I could go write that extra article, I could go to this extra thing. But, like, if I went for a walk right now, like, that actually would be better for me. No one needs that blog or that article or that tweet or whatever it is.

Pamela Bardhi: Absolutely love that. Well, I love that because the problem with entrepreneurship, like you said, sometimes, right. We get super excited about our mission and we’re like, oh, my God. But it’s like, kind of checking yourself and saying, is this actually in alignment with what I’m doing? Is this going to fuel my mission?

Aaron Hurst: Yep.

Pamela Bardhi: At the end of the day, because shiny algebra syndrome happens all the time with entrepreneurs. Oh, my God, have you heard about this? This is so cool.

Aaron Hurst: Yeah.

Pamela Bardhi: So, some questions to ask, like you were just referencing, I think is absolutely critical because it almost holds yourself accountable. I think that your discipline  is absolutely critical. It tells me a lot about how and why you’ve been able to create these different ventures. In such a beautiful way and still stick to the mission so beautifully. Because you give yourself that accountability and you also set those boundaries where it’s needed. Right. If it’s not feeding the mission right, you try.

Aaron Hurst: I think the other thing you realize after you’ve done a couple of ventures is especially, like right now. I’m doing a portfolio approach, in part because I want more of my ventures to fail and to let go of them. It gives you perspective that it’s like, okay. And I know it’s a cliche, like, it’s okay to fail, but what happens in entrepreneurship. You get so fixated on it being successful, you don’t give it up quickly enough. Just realize, also imperative was successful, now it’s been acquired, now it’s part of something else. My kids are more important than that. These ventures don’t matter that much, at the end of the day.

And a lot of times people put in 1020 years into something, it ends up just nothing. Statistically, you’re likely to fail, whereas you can’t fail being a parent. So I just think it’s so important to put that in perspective, hard, especially when you’re younger, because you don’t. There’s all these romanticized ideas of entrepreneurship. Part of what I try to do is like, demystify and de-romanticize entrepreneurship, some. Because I think it really is something that, especially the millennials, and Gen Z, it’s been so romanticized. As like, the thing to do, and yet I don’t think it’s the right path for most people, right, if.

Pamela Bardhi: They don’t understand their mission and their purpose. It’s really hard because what I’m seeing is so many of them are diving in and they’re saying. Want to do this and I want to do this. And then, finding out that they’re money motivated and I’m like, man, that’s only going to get you this far. I promise you, especially with me in real estate, everyone’s, your success has been so incredible. I’m like, listen, my whole thing, there’s elements of creation, in it. There’s a whole spiritual side of what I do when it comes to real estate. Like, there’s a, there’s a lot going on here that you’re not seeing. You’re seeing the forefront of Pam, super successful and all the glitzy stuff.

Deep down, man, the amount of times I’ve failed. Which is really just lessons, but all these things, if it wasn’t for the mission. I don’t think I could have moved forward with it. And so I think it’s I think your work is actually becoming more and more prominent. More now, more than ever, for people to get to understand themselves and their purpose. Maybe you’re not meant to be an entrepreneur, but maybe you’re meant to be on the tech team. That starts this startup, or you’re meant to be on, you know, on this side of things. You know, it doesn’t mean that you don’t have to be the front-facing piece of it. But maybe there’s a difference, there’s different ways for you to incorporate.

Service learning is what the world needs now more than anything

So I love that, I think what you’ve created is what the world needs now more than anything. And service learning, I’m like, as you were talking, tiny object syndrome started popping up. I’m like, man, now, I wish that I want there to be a school, I want there to be a school for my kids where they can go and do that. Because really, that’s the best learning ever. In high school, when I went to the Dominican Republic and spent a week in service, that was never. Nothing has ever, to this day, everything that I learned on that trip, I still, I could never take food.

I could never just leave food and not take it with takeout with me. After going on that trip and seeing an eleven person household sleep on one full size bed. Like, you know, you just, you can’t, you don’t take things for granted anymore. So those service based learning pieces are absolutely critical. And I’m, like, curious to know, is there anybody doing that right now, are there any institutes? Are there any schools popping up? Would love to hear more about it.

Aaron Hurst: There needs to be a lot more, one of the studies we did, probably eight years ago. We surveyed students at three universities, and I think it was 61%. I may be getting that wrong. Said they’d rather major in a purpose than a subject. And I think there’s this opportunity to rethink education. But high school and college around focus on purpose, not on subjects. Subjects are less and less relevant, especially with AI. So I’m hoping there’ll be some major innovation in education along those lines, I think it’s hard right now. College is so expensive that there’s this expectation of basically producing a money machine to pay off your debt.

It’s a pretty broken system. I’m hoping as adults, though, within companies, et cetera, we can do more. A lot of the work I’m doing now, one of my new ventures is called board dot de v. And it’s all about placing tech execs on nonprofit boards. Because nonprofits need that technical expertise in the boardroom, there’s a gap on boards that we need technologists on boards. We need technical governance. But it’s also service learning, because a lot of tech execs have not seen anything outside of their Microsoft cubicles and offices. They don’t know what the real world’s about.

They haven’t had to operate outside of a technology context, they haven’t had to operate with any kind of diversity. We’ll produce much better leaders in the tech industry if more tech leaders are on nonprofit boards. So, that’s an example of how I’m trying to bring service learning into leadership in the tech industry. Because we’ve got a major bro disease in the tech industry that we’ve got to like de Bro the industry. And I think service is one of the ways to do that.

Pamela Bardhi: You just said that all my best friends are like, oh, those finance bros? I’m like, oh, my God. So when you just said de bro, I’m going to call them and say, we got to de bro this whole thing. I love that debro operation. Yeah, I love that. Oh, my gosh, Erin, I absolutely love that. And I love that your newest venture is working on that, too. We’ll talk some more about that, too. Because I’ve got some partners of mine that are building blockchain and tech stuff. Maybe, it could be a cool opportunity for them to just give back. That could be a really cool thing.

Pamela Bardhi: Oh, man.

What would your older self tell your younger self based on what’s now

And I saved the best question for last, and I’m super excited to hear what you say. They can be business, personal, whatever. But, for you, what would your older self tell your younger self based on what you know now?

Aaron Hurst: So my younger self, like, previously versus now. Yes, I think we’ve already talked about it. Just, like, practice the art of essentialism, just don’t do what’s necessary. Empty space is the space for wisdom. Like, actually, real life happens in the emptiness, not in the moments of speed and activity. And I think it’s really hard. I say that I don’t think my younger self, they’d be like, yep, yeah, of course. Then I wouldn’t do anything about it, but that is the nature of advice we would try. Yeah, advice you would try. Research shows that advice generally benefits those giving it, not those receiving it. This made me feel better that I told my younger self that. But I don’t know that my younger self would give a damn.

Pamela Bardhi: It’s okay. Fair shot. You are making it happen. You’re trying, at least. Oh, I love that, Erin, oh, my gosh. That’s incredible. And I love what you’re doing at poor Dev, too.

Aaron: I’m starting a new civic institution called the chamber of connection

I was going to ask you right after that, hey, what’s up in your world in the next few months? But it sounds like that’s something that you’re heavily into in the next few months. Is there anything else you’re working on, or is that primary?

Aaron Hurst: The joint venture in Latin America around, purpose driven leadership for latin american companies called alma brands. That’s been great, and then I’m starting a new civic institution called the chamber of connection. The idea that everywhere there’s a chamber of commerce. There needs to be a chamber of connection to help address the social connection gap in our society. Early days of exploring what that would look like. And then I’m playing around with some AI stuff that I’m just to learn and be at the forefront of. So I can understand what the impact is going to be.

Pamela Bardhi: I love that you mentioned that. The chamber of connection, that’s very interesting. That’s very, very interesting, because what your purpose is on that, in terms of the loneliness piece. That is exactly why I started a conscious business league. Because I was like, you know, there’s too many entrepreneurs that don’t have the resources to connect with each other. And, you know, we struggle to talk about struggles and, you know, open up to people that understand us. Even though we love our friends and our family, they just don’t get it if they’re not entrepreneurs, right?

So, I love that. Oh, my goodness, Aaron, you are magical and amazing and just all of the things. I’m just so grateful for you being here today and taking the time. I know how important and precious your time is, so I’m so, so beyond grateful. And I know everyone who’s listening is like, where can I find awesome Erin, and get connected to all of the things, my friend? Any links, websites? Where’s the best place to reach you?

Aaron Hurst: LinkedIn is my best spot. So just, connect with me on LinkedIn. Purpose economy is my sort of core website, but LinkedIn is where I sort of share what’s going on. And I’m usually on top of my DM’s there, so feel free to DM me.

Pamela Bardhi: You are magical, Aaron. Thank you so much for your time today, your wisdom, all of the nuggets. I’m like, man, I need to process all that. He just told me right now because it was so good. I appreciate you so much.

Underdog is a weekly podcast from Underdog. Always dropping on Thursdays

So that’s it for today’s episode of Underdog. Catch us next week. Always dropping on Thursdays. And remember, if you’re interested in real estate or want to learn how to create more money and magic in your life. Check out meetwithpamela.com and let’s chat. Sending you so, so much love.